Saturday, September 13, 2025
Charlie Kirk
I have had quite the week, with a lot to do at work. I've already mentioned two of my projects -- the weeding of our poetry and literature section, and cleaning up and organizing the board games in the Lower School. There was more of that, plus daily routines, putting up a new display and pulling a cart of books for an upcoming class. Now, finally, the old literature books have been stamped and boxed for charity, the board games are about half organized, and as of yesterday evening, everything was where it belonged -- for the moment!
And then there's been this terrible news about Charlie Kirk. I obviously disagreed with Kirk on many issues, based on what I've read and seen of his public remarks. But I didn't follow him closely, and of course I would not wish violence upon him for merely expressing his opinions. If we can't have a conversation, if we can't exchange opposing views, we're in a dark place as a society.
David French wrote an interesting column in the Times that emphasized this dangerous ground. "One of the worst elements of modern political discourse is that we tend to learn about our opponents entirely through the words and actions we find offensive..." French wrote. "We don’t ever see the points of agreement. We rarely see the person outside his political context. Post by post, our hearts harden until some people reach a point where they will celebrate the deaths of people they’ve grown to despise."
I often see this in comments on right-wing news sites, where Democrats are vilified and continually threatened with violence as traitors, satanists and communists. I'm sure it happens on left-wing sites too, though commenters on the mainstream news sites I read tend to be pretty reserved.
The internet lends itself to this kind of dehumanization, this blind outrage, because we don't have extended, thoughtful exchanges where we're looking into the eyes of our opponents and seeing them as a whole person. They're just obnoxious anonymous trolls, popping in for quick sniping comments, the snarkier the better. Modern social media fosters this climate.
We all have the same questions -- what prompted Kirk's assassin to act as he did? What stirred him so much that he felt killing Kirk was justified? I'm stating the obvious, but even for a person worried about the political trajectory of the USA and many of our western democracies -- as I am -- this was an extreme act. And the alleged perpetrator seems like such a nice boy, with a promising future. So many questions, but the main one is Why?
Again, I'm stating the obvious, but killing a single person like Kirk achieves nothing. In fact, it's counterproductive, because your foe is elevated and becomes a martyr. I've already seen right-wingers likening Kirk to Martin Luther King Jr., which I find galling but the comparison is out there. You can't kill an idea. This is the same mistake governments make when they try to kill individual terrorists, even if they are powerful leaders and organizers -- there's always another one ready to step up and take the place of the fallen, because the foe isn't a person, it's an idea, a philosophy. Kirk and his fellow leaders aren't the enemy. Right-wing, evangelical Christian nationalism and extreme conservatism are what's dangerous.
French concluded his column with a quote by Abraham Lincoln spoken on the eve of the Civil War: "I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection."
It can be difficult to feel any affection for our political opponents in this day and age, but I think we have to try. It's the "turn-the-other-cheek" message that many of us were raised with. Otherwise, where are we headed?
(Photo: An apartment building reflected in a puddle on the street, yesterday.)
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Personally, I think that the advent of social media has been a disaster in many respects. The word limit in Twitter/X mitigates against any extended discourse, leading to the sniping that you refer to. And the anonymity also doesn't help - individuals write things that they would never say face-to-face.
ReplyDeleteApparently Musk has done away with the word limit, or so I'm told -- but even so, the format lends itself to sniping. I agree -- disaster.
DeleteWell they seem to have caught someone, Tyler Robinson for the shooting. Saw a neighbour of the family saying what a quiet lad Tyler is. So probably you can blame social media for why he did it. The 'violence' of words is of course the weapon that makes people do stupid things.
ReplyDeleteWhat was frightening was that immediately, this was branded as a professional hit job orchestrated by the left. There were calls to take up arms. One clip with over 750,000 views called for democrats to be taken out, "every last one". The president of the United States is saying that democrats hate America. All a rush to judgement. He was not a professional. He was not transgendered. He was a quiet kid from a MAGA family...yet for a time he was the face of "the left".
DeleteThelma: I think this kid essentially spent his life online, and when you have little to no contact with the real world, it warps your brain. As the Utah governor said, "Go outside and touch grass."
DeleteDebby: Exactly! Hate and judgment just breeds more hate and judgment, a lot of it based on incorrect assumptions and stereotypes.
Even here, in our little backwater, social media is rife with wicked, evil and hateful comments. It is quite disturbing that these are people that I probably see in the street every day.
ReplyDeleteIt's a window into the dark parts of many of us, and they ought to remain in the dark!
DeletePlenty of food for thought there. Thank you for articulating your response to the Kirk killing so lucidly Steve. Did Tyler Robinson truly imagine that he could get away with the assassination? If he did, he must have less intelligence than a wooden puppet. He has blighted the lives of his parents and brothers as well as the cause of democracy and now he must stew in jail cells until his inevitable execution - years from now. What a fool!
ReplyDeleteI agree. It seems ridiculous that he ever thought he could get away with this. Did he ever think of his family, his friends? And if not, why not?
DeleteWhat a great post today :) Charlie Kirk's message was to keep talking because it's when people, communities and nations stop talking/debating/acknowledging the views of others that violence begins. His message must never be lost.
ReplyDeleteJaw-jaw, not war-war
DeleteHe said a lot of vile things while talking, and as an op-ed in The New York Times said this morning, "What’s apparent, looking back on his ideas and the style in which he expressed them, is that Mr. Kirk used his platform to coarsen our political discourse, draining it of that vital bulwark against real-world violence: empathy."
DeleteBut STILL, yes, he was focused on the debate.
You make an excellent point, turn the other cheek, listen to your opponent, find the good. Following blindly like sheep is not the answer.
ReplyDeleteAll we can do is try to understand each other, and if the "other side" fails to respond in kind, we can't get drawn into a physical battle.
DeleteSo well said you have expressed how I feel and probably lots of other people so succinctly. The question why this young man thought killing someone he did not agree with would be an answer to the problem will probably never be answered. So much hate and anger, so many lives ruined. It is a tragedy. She H
ReplyDeleteIt is a tragedy, absolutely. I hope we get some answers but I'm afraid we may not like or understand them.
DeleteKirk was hateful and cruel and did a great deal of damage, but I agree that killing him, aside from being immoral, has the opposite affect. He’s already become a martyr and the Orange Menace and his minions are using him to stir up even more hate. More terrible times ahead.
ReplyDeleteThe right wing in the USA has a real problem with hateful rhetoric. It's been true for decades, and I think Rush Limbaugh is largely to blame. Rush is dead now, and they need to moderate their message -- and we liberals need to moderate our response.
DeleteOf course he was expressing his opinions. And of course he didn't deserve to die for them. But also very obvious that his entire platform was made to radicalize, especially young white men. The normalizing of this man is really something to see. And world leaders commenting on him specifically? And the fact his killer is a MAGA-loving white boy? South Park couldn't even write this.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we know for sure that his killer is "a MAGA-loving white boy," but yes, Kirk's rhetoric was meant to radicalize. I think young leaders, particularly on the right, have lost sight of the difference between motivating language and dangerous provocation.
DeleteI agree with Will and others about the pernicious effects of social media. Anyone can now say anything they want for everyone to see, without any restraint at all. I mentioned on another blog that at one time even things as innocuous as Playboy and Private Eye were not stocked by WH Smiths as going too far, in effect censorship. But the money involved would not now let that happen, although perhaps it should.
ReplyDeleteSome kids, including apparently this one, literally spend every waking moment online. That can't be healthy for anyone's psyche.
DeleteI just saw stats of threats of violence and interestingly enough, or not, they have gone up when Cankles runs for office or when Cankles is in office.
ReplyDeleteAs for Kirk, I don't like the idea of being gunned down for your words, but he made a living off of spreading hate, and suggesting LGBTQ+ person be put to death or that trans people are the mass shooters.
You live in hate you most likely will die that way.
Trump definitely gives people permission to be their worst selves. We can't indulge him in that. I agree that there is a sort of karmic effect at work here, but that makes it no less of a tragedy for both Kirk's family and Robinson's.
DeleteExcept that the right-wing faction in Jolly ol' England is rallying for the dead Charlie Kirk.
ReplyDeleteYeah, we have the same problems in the UK, it's true. I don't want to sound too paranoid but there are forces out there who use this tension to drive us farther and farther apart, because they know the conflict weakens us overall.
DeleteMartyrdom is dangerous in terms of motivating retribution and his status immediately bolted up amongst the right wing. Certainly I agree with others on social media as an element toward his radicalization. No one deserves to die for this. But as Elle said, much of his platform was designed to radicalize toward the right. No excuse for assassination but he wasn't a golden-haired boy. I think what bothers me most is the hypocrisy on the right. It isn't as though the right hasn't taken out judges, a Minnesota rep (with a hit list), Paul Pilosi and others. And yet those were rarely mentioned by the right with any sense of empathy or compassion. Our world has become a very dark place and I think it will become more so in coming months.
ReplyDeleteNo, Kirk was not an angel -- far from it! And there is a certain danger in being a provocateur.
DeleteIt's also important to remember that mental illness was a major factor in several of the incidents you mention -- and perhaps in this one as well. We have got to get better as a society at helping those among us who are struggling. We have basically washed our hands of them.
You're absolutely correct there. It's a bad combo -- mental illness, firearms and an agenda.
DeleteBy far, this is the best post I have read on this subject and I am in absolute agreement. If I had one wish for people using social media who wish to comment on a political post, it would be to think about how you would feel if someone posted a similarly veined comment about your beliefs. If it would raise your hackles, consider not posting it and adding to the problem we find ourselves in today.
ReplyDeleteHateful comments aren't just an issue with political posts, they extend to many other areas as well. It's hard to find a social media post these days where anonymous trolls don't vent their anger.
DeleteExactly. I think people of all political perspectives have lost sight of basic human decency and courtesy. Not everyone, of course, but I think too many people use the internet and social media to vent frustrations, forgetting that the targets of their words are real human beings with feelings. (Kirk often forgot this too, to be fair.)
DeleteSocial media has made it easy to spread hate. How do we stop the lies and hate that is spewing from the current administration?
ReplyDeleteFor one thing, we keep in mind that the lies and hate are a smokescreen, obscuring the real dangers -- the manipulation of voting, the inhuman treatment of migrants, the funneling of wealth to the top. We resist however we can, but violence is never the answer. We can't let ourselves be baited.
DeleteIt seems that young, white men are the most dangerous of Americans, not the illegal immigrants as trump asserts.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe in murder, although I think there are circumstances that I can understand, revenge killing, a crime of passion, I can understand that. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. Killing someone because their beliefs are different than yours, I don't understand that.
Charlie Kirk held some truly detestable beliefs, the opposite of what I believe, but he did not deserve to die for those beliefs. The sad irony is that the very ideas he embraced, the 2nd amendment, is partially responsible for his death. He said that some people will die because of the 2nd amendment and he was right.
There there have been 244 gun related deaths in the past week in the US, no public outpouring of grief. The US government sends thoughts and prayers to the families of those killed and does nothing to prevent those deaths.
It boggles the mind that the US allows this to continue. The 2nd amendment allows an armed militia to defend themselves against a federal army, again the irony is that trump is sending in federal troops to cities he disagrees with. I could go on but apparently Jack sees the need to keep interuppting me.
I can't begin to explain US gun culture. I've never understood it and it continues to mystify me. I think a lot of young men are caught in a sort of suspended adolescence, gaming away their days and lacking the knowledge or motivation to find a purpose. It's interesting that women don't seem to have this problem. Which just makes the men all the angrier.
DeleteCharlie Kirk was a dangerous man even more so because he cultivated an image of reasonableness and calm debate. But there was no debate that would sway Kirk from his positions because they came from his religious convictions. Debate was a sham, there were no facts anyone could present that would convince him of the wrongness of his vision for this country and culture. He was a Dominionist. For all the calmness he tried to project his words and intent were hateful and cruel. He was just fine with children, people, being killed by the gun as the price to pay for unfettered access and possession of whatever gun you wanted. Did he deserve to die? Maybe. He reaped what he sowed.
ReplyDeleteAs for this political violence not being what we are, what this country stands for, was built on. It most certainly is. Slavery, political genocide of the First Nations, black communities wiped out during Jim Crow, political assassinations including 4 presidents and unsuccessful attempts on other presidents, MLK, Bobby Kennedy, Gabby Giffords who survived her shot to the head, and the more recent attacks, murders, attempted kidnappings of political figures and their families. It is worse now because of the current gun culture and the violent rhetoric from the right wing but it's always been a part of who we are as a nation.
Yep, Ellen, pulling a trigger is so easy.
DeleteYes to everything Ellen has said.
DeleteBut isn't that certainty of conviction true of many of us? I can't really see myself changing positions on many of the issues I hold dear. I think what we've lost is the ability to say, "OK, you think one thing and I think another. I'm a Christian and you're not. You're gay and I'm not. But we are all Americans and we participate equally in a single society, and in that we have shared interests."
DeleteI mean, call it Kumbaya, but it's true.
You're right that the USA has a violent history, but you could say that about humanity in general. Europe is no better -- look at the Crusades or colonialism or the great wars of the 20th Century. The Aztecs were brutal. "Justice" in some parts of the Middle East is brutal even now. Just because it's always been true doesn't mean we should tolerate it or not work against it.
But that's the point Steve. It takes both parties to create a compromise and the conservative getting more radical every year Republicans have refused to compromise ever since Obama was elected. The white right wing Christian nationalists don't want a multicultural nation where we all just get along. How do you 'get along' with people whose goal is to rid the country of everyone not like them? We saw the logical conclusion to that in Nazi Germany. Eventually you fight or you let them kill you. I don't know if Kirk's murder was justified especially since the apparent motive was because he was not radical enough but he certainly was the victim of what he espoused.
DeleteAnd yes humans are violent and brutal in general, human history shows us that. Of course we should fight against it. It's the whole 'this is not us, this is not America' chest beating delusion I object to. We have more guns in this country than people. Can't change something if you don't admit it's a problem.
Yes, again!
DeleteIt does take both sides to compromise but the current administration, like certain elements of the Republican party going back to the 1960s, has no intention of compromising. They want a white Christian nationalist country and will not settle for anything less. That leaves out everyone who doesn't fit the description or accept it. There is no real debate or compromise by the ones who are currently running the show.
The individual held and being fully investigated is only 22 years old. How does someone that young become so enraged to want to pick up a gun and murder someone? Was he part of a group and radicalized?
ReplyDeleteI do not agree with most of what CK stood for, but he should not have lost his life.
That said, the news and media often fuels distrust and division.
I think online culture, especially video games, can really warp the brain of young people who are overly immersed in them.
DeleteThe murder did not disturb me. The murderer also does not disrturb me, what lies beneath is most disturbing as this country launches full board into Authoritarian fascism. there will be many more atrocious events, no one can prepare for what is to come . The murder of charlie is very much a spark igniting radicals, fully supported by the government and so called president.
ReplyDeleteA responsible president would be using his office to quell violence and ease tension, rather than trying to ignite more. You're right about that.
DeleteThis is such a complex subject. I just read a post on FB a friend of mine had shared about how true Christians (and my friend is one) must remember to do as Jesus directed and love our neighbors, turn the other cheek, and so forth.
ReplyDeleteI find myself unable to do this. People like Charlie Kirk spew anger which leads to violence against many of the people I love the most. How can I begin to even pretend to love the messenger of such hate? An in-law relative of mine, upon the death of James Dobson, posted on FB a statement that read something to the effect that when Dobson reached the pearly gates, god would say to him, "Welcome, good and faithful son." How can I begin to even pretend to love someone who believes that man was anything but cruel and hateful? Who believes in a god that would use Dobson as the messenger of such vitriol. And I know this woman is a kind woman. A loving wife and mother and grandmother. But what does she really think about my own children whom Dobson would proclaim as evil and sinful?
I am not a good enough person to accept any of this as something I can ignore. I can keep my thoughts to myself when I am with her but what I'd really like to do is to respond to her post, asking her if she truly believes what Dobson said about the discipling of children, about the LGBTA+ people I know and love? I won't. But I want to and it could be so easily done via Facebook. There is part of me that says she herself has used hate speech, simply in her obvious belief in Dobson's messages although of course she would deny that. And perhaps that is the best I can do- simply not respond.
Is that turning the other cheek? I don't know. I am having a very hard time with all of this, including feeling any real sorrow about Kirk's death. It should not have happened. That I can agree with.
I wouldn't say I feel sorrow about Kirk's death either, but yes, it should not have happened. I think by not responding to your friend about Dobson you ARE in fact turning the other cheek. You're using restraint and recognizing that she holds different views, and leaving it at that. Which is all any of us can do, because attacking each other cannot end well. No one will be convinced.
DeleteWhenever something like this happens, we have to remember that initial information is almost always wrong. It's beginning to emerge that the young man may be a follower of Nick Fuentes who feuded with Kirk because he found Kirk to be too far to the LEFT. This may not be fully accurate either. Hopefully we will learn more. But accuracy unfortunately may not matter.
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot of information out there being generated and promoted by people with vested interests. This is another reason I don't pay any attention to Twitter or most other social media.
DeleteCharlie's opinions about women, gay people, minorities and anyone not like him was not political opinion. It was hate speech.
ReplyDeleteWell, again, I am not well versed on everything Charlie Kirk ever said, and I must admit I often find it hard to draw a line between controversial political opinion and "hate speech." (And I say that as a card-carrying gay person.)
DeleteIn some cases it's dangerous to our rights and our own lives to turn the other cheek. I don't believe that anyone should die for his/her beliefs though. From what I'm hearing, the shooter was from a conservative LDS family who loved Trump and guns but that he was more affiliated with Nick Fuentes. Who hated Charlie Kirk because he wasn't white supremacist enough.
ReplyDeleteIt will be interesting to see whether this alleged Fuentes link pans out. By turning the other cheek I don't mean we shouldn't resist when our lives are threatened -- I am still funneling money to pro-choice causes, for example, because I think women in the USA are in danger. But all of us, on all sides of these issues, need to also take a breath and recognize that we may think differently but have common interests, and focus our resistance on the ideology rather than individuals.
DeleteFirst, I love your photo today! There is a certain moodiness to it.
ReplyDeleteYour comments today are beautifully said and thanks for the link to David French's article. I've read a lot of opinion pieces over the past few days but I missed that one. You and many of the other people who have brought it up are right about social media. It has been poisoning our society since it came on the scene. I still remember when I decided to close my Facebook account about 12 years ago because I was seeing things that were toxic and I didn't to be a part of it.
My first feeling when I heard the news about Kirk was horror. I knew that the extremists on both sides would be charging ahead and fueling the fire in the heart of some other idealist with a gun. The mental health of our nation is dangling by a thread.
It really is! Mental health is such a problem now. I think many young people spend inordinate amounts of time online and that unbalances them.
DeleteAlthough I certainly don't condone murder, even Kirk's, I find I don't feel anything about him. I think I must be worn out from all the hate speech he and his ilk have spewed.
ReplyDeleteI mean I don't feel anything about his murder.
DeleteI wouldn't say I feel sorrow, exactly, though I feel terrible about his family. (I also feel terrible about the shooter's family.) I do think Kirk was taking a very dangerous path with his incendiary language, perhaps without fully realizing it.
DeleteYou're absolutely right about social media, Steve. Say what you think in 25 words or less and angry people are going to come up with angry words. I miss the days of (almost) everyone having the newspaper delivered and taking the time to read it.
ReplyDeleteLove,
Janie
Me too! Oh for the days of carefully edited and vetted news content, when the only response was to write a letter to the editor, which usually required a bit of thought and "cooling off" time!
DeleteGoogle "groyper" and "Pepe the Frog." These are the people that shooter identified with. They are the far-right who viewed Kirk as a sell out. He was a sell out, his schtick was to talk over people, get clicks and generate content. I but he's not a net loss to society.
ReplyDeleteI know about Groypers, though I'm not clear on this kid's supposed link to them. I think we as a society have to figure out how to move away from an online culture where outrage equals clicks.
DeleteI like the question you leave us with at the end. We have to put up with some negativism but how much. Obviously it's gone too far and there's no indication of any change.
ReplyDeleteIt has all gone too far.
DeleteThe photo is very 1970 disaster movie
ReplyDeleteHa! It does have a kind of "Towering Inferno" vibe!
DeleteI in no way condone the violence so pervasive in this country, but Kirk was a charlatan who spent years spewing hate, misogyny, racism, and violence to anyone he did not agree with. He was not interested in debate, only bloviating his toxic message all the while hiding behind the veil of his so-called "Christianity." I am not at all surprised that he met his end due to the forces that he encouraged.
ReplyDeleteI hear u
DeleteKirk WAS a charlatan, I agree, in the tone and tenor of his arguments. But I'm not sure he didn't want to debate. I think he was absolutely convinced he was right and debated from that standpoint, and I don't think that's any different from most of us, really.
DeleteI don't know Steve. I understand what you are saying, and of course murder is wrong. But this man, from what I have subsequently learnt, was vile beyond the pale. Martyr or not, the world is a better place without him.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that killing him elevates his poisonous message -- which it has done, as we've all seen. I've heard more Charlie Kirk quotes over the last 48 hours than in my entire life prior to that. It would have been far more effective for this shooter to resist the message than to end the life of one messenger.
DeleteQuite so that it has elevated his messages. Am I naive to think his messages will only be grasped by those who want to hear them?
DeleteWhere, indeed. The so-called "social" media is filled with rabid speech from both sides of the political spectrum. Our president sees only one side, apparently, so he can find no blame for the right. Not to say that he is responsible for it but he over emphasizes only one point of view. So, once again - where, indeed, will this climate take us.
ReplyDeleteTrump's perspectives certainly can't be trusted. He's not operating with all of the information. (Or a full deck, in my opinion.)
DeleteI had never heard of Charlie Kirk before this happened. From what I've learned about him, I know I would not agree with the majority of what he said. Still, I'm sorry for his kids. His wife was on the news tonight and it sounded like "righteous anger" will have her continuing his mission. Steve, you should go back and read my post from last week called The Founding Myth. I think you'd appreciate the video on it.
ReplyDeletebtw.... great photo of Olga in the side bar!! 🥰
DeleteGlad you like the Olga photo. I thought she needed a permanent presence somewhere on the blog front.
DeleteI'm sorry for Kirk's family too, though I'm sure I'd argue with all of them politically!
I was trying to explain to a friend yesterday that I believed words were the most dangerous thing out there, more dangerous than guns.
ReplyDeleteBecause we can kill someone with the wrong words, just as we could also save their life with the right ones.
You are so right that none of us will ever know who Mr Kirk really was, we will only know about his words.
I think we would all do well to moderate our language, and consider how we respond to another's language. Social media has taught us to exist with a heightened level of vitriol, and that's just not normal. Whatever happened to "Sticks and stones..."?
Delete